Watermark Church is a popular, non-denominational church in the Dallas area which has about 11,000 members. Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. or. that the elder board was ready to go in Todds leadership direction. Or you perfect? In response to a tweet by a critic questioning Wagners seeming humility when he announced he was taking a leave of absence in September, Wagner tweeted: Mission accomplished. Wagner later deleted that tweet. She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you cant have one without the other. but unfortunately christian powerbrokers have made christianity about things other than Jesus Christ. its all relative the woman in the mumbai slum may see the person in Dallas who rents a room as having luxuries, who sees the person living in their own apartment as having luxuries. Are Calvinism and YEC accurately described as higher? As for two doctrinal statements, our church has something similar, one for members and one for leaders. Wagner has always surrounded himself with yes men. If you want to remove watermark in Church Membership without any confusion, DocHub is a perfect tool for such duties. I verified it. You CANNOT, however, attempt to withdraw membership to avoid church discipline. Thats for God to reveal or conceal.. Stonebriar Community Church. To donate, click here. See more of Watermark Community Church on Facebook. They gave you a false fraudulent form of love, because it was ConditionalRead more , I dont want to make light of this, but I do want to say that this is beyond misleading. eSignature; However, an expert on church property law says the churches . Its extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about Worth 1-2 million. You may be thinking of a different Todd Wagner, who is a longtime partner of Mark Cuban. All white and all men has nothing to do with anything. It is the Lord Jesus who is in control after all folks. Seems there are some Watermark menbers seems to me median, or less, is reasonable (relative to the community where the church exists). Todd Wagner was preaching. Thank you for the leadership which I thank God and Im so sorry to see many have turned against you. Smarmy Thesaurus When I watched his stepping back/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. I can attest, when they claim no member of WM will ever go homeless, is a complete and total lie. Messages; Most people in the U.S. have a lavish lifestyle compared to most believers around the world. The Watermark spokesperson explained that the church followed the Dallas Independent School District's "standard and customary process for this . Also resigned is David Leventhal, an elder and teaching pastor at Watermark, who said he had lost trust in Wagners leadership. As for the doctrinal statement issue, I see what you are saying. Also, any comments with profanity, name-calling, and/or a nasty tone will be deleted. For ye were as *sheep going astray;* Not to gotcha, but I just want to set the record straight that the gift tax doesnt make it unrealistic that Todds family was gifted that house. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group. They did create it. Show me one bit of Biblical historicity in favor of the modern seeker-oriented megachurch. You guys can rip apart our church and Todd all you want, but I know him, and you wont find a man with more of a heart of gold than him. The Porch. If not? If you dont want to be a member at Watermark you dont have to be.Read more , There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. He hides behind the church to bully people whether in the church or outside. Read More. Both Wagner and Leventhal will remain at Watermark as elders emeritus. Ive never heard of nor attended a church with such a position. Aside from the fact that it was gifted to him (alarming at the very least) it shows poor stewardship and lack of humility on Wagners part. While he was pastor at another church in Dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ. seems pretty far-fetched to me, but sure makes for a great explanation and a great story (if youre not Todd or the supposed wealthy person, this is what you were told). He found my blog while researching the similarities between Scientology and Watermark Church. Youve been a member at Watermark for ~6 years, and how many times have you talked to each elder? Thanks for giving up the last word. If youd like a suggestion for a charity outside of our church well gladly help you. They dont even take a collection in church! Eight-time Top 100 Places to Work winner Watermark Community Church finds that patience is a virtue Church kept the faith and finds itself on top of the list after 7 consecutive . Friends, theres a lot of speculation here. Wow. So Leventhal resigned several weeks before Wagner, but theyre announcing this together, on the same day? Just the congregationhmmmmmm.. Set up and configure your eSignature workflows the way you want them. Bought the house without telling Todd and gifted it to his name without filling him in on the plans to give it to him. If youre short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. Or, in this case, you live on as Elder Emeritus! indoor plumbing plumbing would be a luxury. Yet, Mickey Friedrich says: [dont] try and judge whose version of events is right or wrong, and that even Friedrich and Thompson land at a different place than (Leventhal and Wagner) regarding why weve arrived here.. Perfectly said Scottie. R.w. He is a gifted teacher and speaker and could have made so much more money over the years with the opportunities he was given, but he didnt take them. Im not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. In the online video, Leventhal described the process of discernment with Wagner as heart-breaking, exhausting, and expensive for Leventhal, his wife, the elder team, and the campus pastor team. Take Your Power Back we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization. A man and a woman who sued Watermark Community Church over threats to disclose an alleged affair have dropped the suit, both sides said Tuesday. TWW last left Wagner on leave due to pride in Todd Wagner, the Controversial Pastor of Watermark Church, Steps Away *for a Season. Watermark is a community of faithful, creative, authentic Christ-followers who are united in one purpose: to be and make disciples of Jesus. Its upto Him. Its a huge red flag to me about Todds character and understanding of God. According to a report by National Public Radio, the Catholic Church has paid more than $3 billion in child sexual abuse lawsuit settlements in America alone. Cant even begin to address this without feeling a sense of disappointment. I went back several times others preached but werent as good holding an audiences attention as Todd Wagner and the full content with historical and life referces and quoting scripture just wasnt there like Todd Wagner.. then they said Watermark Plano was becoming its own church. First and foremost- this is a season that God is shaking things up. Additionally, unless you have seen all of the financial reports from the last 22 yrs, you have no idea how Wagner was compensated. What you need to know about Church Membership Covenants., The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, The Aftermath Part II: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members, Family Ties: How Watermark Community Church is Alienating Families. His Grace is given to everyone, lets say even if He wasnt saved (lets say if he was one) have you prayed for him? I bet some of you, dont attend or are part of the church, Jealousy amongst many of you I can smell from here. I really enjoyed the music and people. Remember how CJ wrote a book on humility and then some of the staff said he was anything but and instead was quite controlling. Gateway Church. Does God want everyone to be broke? The initial corporate fraud is in fact the membership agreement itself. 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry atRead more , I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their morality assessment and they decide you have a pride issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. If I had to guess the Sr Pastor Todd agreed to leave if the concerned pastor Steve agreed to resign. It also lists Fellowship Church and Village Church in its top 10 on cults (Village likely is, Fellowship is more of a personality cult centered around Ed), strangely Gateway Church isnt listed (and several people think it may be more of a personality cult than Watermark or Village). Ill happily answer any questions, but for any Believers here I would strongly encourage you to first take this to the Lord in prayer, then His word, and then ask yourself if its healthy or wise or appropriate to make such claims about a person / place you know almost nothing about. During his address to the Watermark Community Church congregation in September, Wagner told them [], Did anyone see this Sundays Sermon? Demands full disclosure of finances in church groups, but having a hard time finding his. How do you know Todd pays that? MacArthur's Grace Community Church of Sun Valley had been involved in months of legal battles with state and local officials . +++++++++++++++++. Pastor Todd Wagner, abuse. i expect someone who represents Jesus Christ in a leadership capacity to live in accordance to Jesus message on money and wealth. By our measure our savior Jesus was a total and complete failure. Your tax-deductible gift helps our journalists report the truth and hold Christian leaders and organizations accountable. One of the core values of the community groups is Live Authentically, which they define as being completely honest with one anotherthis means giving others permission to know the real you by sharing authentically. This includes sharing your sins, struggles, along with your entire life story, potentially to a room full of complete strangers. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. Over the years, Wagner has been dogged by allegations of spiritual abuse published on a blog called No Eden Elsewhere. Ive been at Watermark for 7 years and experienced people in my community group leaving the church; there are NO such requirements or stipulations that prevent you from leaving the group or the church entirely. Religious double talk. I have NEVER been asked to, let alone forced, to disclose financial information. I keep coming back to this because something just doesnt seem right. There is a filthy rich entrepreneur whose name is Todd Wagner. No longer fulfill the requirements of membership. Thank you for praying for me when I was a cigarette smoker snd 23 yrs of smoking addiction was lifted within a year or so afte that. Not Todds decision but good try on the poor stewardship bit. I started to plan how to move near Plano so I could attend Watermark Plano. We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. Confession, of course! You can tailor it to your groups needs Im only surprised it took 15 years. I dont know what the tax rate is near Watermark but I doubt I could afford just the taxes & insurance on that house. The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter. Paul, thanks for the response. If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation. Is this standard really higher or is it just more specific? Having community is not the issue its how Watermark DEFINES community. Its odd to me that Todd has stated twice (last year and in this years announcement) that he is not disqualified from eldership I have no reason to believe he is disqualified so I dont want to speculate. . Thats a new one on me. Let me guessthe PASTORS of this church DONT have to be real and disclose THEIR salaries, sins, struggles.right???? XPastor recommends readers take special note of the resources provided by Watermark about the issue of Care and Correction. Todd was put on sabbatical to reflect about his proud attitude. I wonder what is considered a lavish lifestyle. Humility and pride has been an issue as many of us see, but since you are the first one to throw the stone, if you used this time to share the Gospel with others (I bet some would get saved) as Lord wants us to rely on Him and have the Holy Spirit to guide us. I guess we just arent ALL as brave as Todd to resign or be open about confession or a need to step back. Childcare was free. I have nothing to hide, and sharingRead more , As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. Having said that,Read more . It was meant to jerk everyones chain. well, the current working job description for leaders of a big church is being ready, willing, and able to obfuscate, embroider the truth, and in some cases lie. There are way more people that will speak well about Todd versus these handful of comments. I agree, it is all relative, which was kind of my point. Its a really bad idea in my opinion because its not being totally forthright with members about what the church actually teaches. Several weeks after Leventhals resignation, Wagner separately decided to step down as senior pastor and elder, the churchs statement said.. The judge in the case ruled for church arbitration, which for Scientologists and former Scientologists means something completely different than the average person. I think you need to expand on the 4B Spiritual Assessment forms. However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit& the Karen Hinkley story.). Why do you throw a stone (more likely without looking at yourselves first). Different guys. That is only for the married folk. Im Jesus name. In September 2020, Wagner announced he was taking a leave of absence to work on pride issues. (although my personal view is a modest lifestyle is best for all, and all things considered,). I was informed that this was a gift from a wealthy individual who has known Todd a long time and does not attend Watermark. Usually blood in the water attracts sharks, but nothing that fierce here, just a bunch of blood sucking remoras. He is a restorer and a life giver, even as we ALL come to him seeking forgiveness. covenant, In the Bible, can you name they portrayed it as Todd having the support of the elders and full steam ahead. Darren, heres what I see are the problems with Elder-Rule church government. If by community you mean confessing every single sin in your life to a group of virtual strangers, disclosing your personal financial information, and seeking the approval of the group to change jobs, buy a house, start a family then no,Read more , Christian community can have so many different levels, and not everyone is seeking the same depth in all relationships. Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. what is lavish? The building was used for free to us (but not them). Approach with caution but it is OK to approach. Sort of as God told him and his wife that it was time to move on to the next thing God has planned. that is perceived as insincere or excessive: Before you Sign. Ive said my bit, not interested in burning much more time, unless you or anyone wants to leave a number to meet to discuss Jesus, WM or Todd. I wonder what is considered a humble enough lifestyle to please all the rest of us looking in and offering our opinion about something we probably do not know enough about. however, since evangelical leaders have redefined gossip to mean dont rock the boat to protect their power, careers, and revenue, can you explain what you mean by gossip? Why wouldnt they just tell the church what happened? Synopsis of the case is as follows. even so, i think its patently obvious that living as the 1% by 1st world standards, even in part, is lavish by any and all standards. The Asbury Revival Is Over. (How many of you have actually prayed for Todd)? Im sorry to hear of judgement that has been passed around. The man and woman had been accused by the man's wife and by the church of being romantically involved. the equity in a $million+ home can be invested to provide hot meals, warm beds, jobs, training, and more for years. In principle it was excellent. Definitely they are important to Christian theology, but they fall within a spectrum of orthodox third-rank doctrines. IfRead more , Adding to people in good standing who have zero knowledge of any discipline issues also fear leaving due to verifiable stories where watermark members have harassed and stalked people for leaving in cases where the person leaving has come to realize the place at its core is Not what is represented on its surface and middle layers. Regardless we know Romans 8:28 maybe its a season of 2 Tim 3:16-17. But why? I came to watermark on a visit with my sons family. It was a class before the main church service where people around the same age as you sat in a room, listened to a bible lesson, maybe interacted a bit, shared prayer requests, took up a small offering, held hands and said a closing prayer. He counseled my former fiance and after several meetings with him my fiance broke up the engagement and I was left devastated. I dont doubt some unconcionable things happened. The streamlined interface is proper for any user, no matter if that individual is used to dealing with such software or . True humility is replaced with a very shallow and false one and so they humble brag about how big a crowd they can draw. Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13). When I received the email from *Susan (pseudonym), a former Watermark Church member, she wrote, I am not the only former Watermarker out there who is nervous to speak up about this organization, because I refuse to call them a church.. ingratiating and wheedling in a way 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Let me rephrase: It was one of the many things I thought they did well. To the unsuspecting eye, everything contained in this document may seem legitimate or customary as far as church membership goes. One of His Disciples who signed a church membership contract?, Five Reasons to Say No to a Church Covenant Wagner was tearful during his speech in the video Sunday. Small group of meeting once a week. I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. Better to have one doctrinal statement that unites both members and elders in my opinion. They are full-blown corporate performance reviews, except about twice as long as any Ive filled out. Awaken Conference 2021. And, have peace and unity. . Again from the Watermark Church document: 1.Voluntary termination of Membership is available to any Member in good standing upon written request of that Member. obey your leaders? Before I get into the first story, I want to lay some groundwork to help my readers understand how the structure of community groups at Watermark Church works. It is an interesting discussion. Im also a bit a sad with respond of David (elder) who is in the leadership role to show the love with staring at the congregation (may be because of challenges). So I canceled my move. We've put together a list of some ways . Regardless I loved your passion and pray that Holy Spirit would cover you and lead you in the area that needs correction. But it still feels like something is off. Once your account is created, you'll be logged-in to this account. As per usual, all white and all males. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. Get eSignature workflows, document management, and business process automation with the airSlate Business Cloud. But, a money maker? Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. Seems like theres a lot of hurting people with a lot to hide on this thread. I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit if youre not comfortable giving here thats ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. Of course, God has a very different definition of success than we do. You are experienced and know your Bible and subject. Why not leave the congregation entirely and allow it to heal under new leadership? Mind Games The Bizarre & Controling Culture of Scripture also says live your neighbor as yourself.folks many of you here have already missed that mark. I dont think so. **THEIR shepherds** Hes definitely not perfect, but he is a good and Godly man who preached the gospel boldly and consistently. Before coming to Watermark, I never knew the Bible could be applied to my life. AGAIN, I have absolutely NO proof and its pure speculation. -, You write about the website, No Eden Elsewhere. You do make the near perfect member with your automated trust in leadership, over having an open mind to others sharing their personal experiences. no one was threatening him he deliberately chose to live as the 1%, say yes & accept it, move in and make it his home. I think one can probably make a case for it using Scripture, but I think Elder-Rule ignores the Scriptural precedence of independent accountability: In terms of two doctrinal statements, what this does is set up an inner ring of people who more closely align with the beliefs of the church (and by church, I mean elders). Theyre not only going to write you off but theyll make sure your entire community group does too.Read more , [] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. There is so much judgement on here it has to hurt the heart of God. That church is huge and has 2 campuses (at least) so I find it hard to believe you even know these elders yourself. . I have never met so many people using the term spiritual abuse asRead more , Concern, Who are you to judge!? Todd Wagner is a guy that would jump in a foxhole with me with the bullets are flying, and I for him. There was one guy that didnt want to shareRead more . the family in a 1970s 2,100 sf home of their own in the suburbs may feel they have the short end of the stick, and see the family in the newer 3,400 sf home as having amazing luxuries. Oh, I wouldnt be so sure of that. Jackson Elliott contributed to this report. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. All Campuses . I admit I also used to automatically discredit stories Like this one when I heard them. Pastors often receive the most judgement and its rarely considered that they likely face the most spiritual warfare. There are people who are genuinely afraid to withdraw their membership for fear of being put under church discipline, pressure from the community group to conform, and outright harassment. Appreciate your response! Todd portrays it all as a divine God told me sort of thing. There is forgiveness for a church also and I hope they are humbled one day so they can grow past some of there root issues. If your Parents were not rich and someone. I know that there are many different types of church governance. This is a big problem if the teaching statement isnt clearly explained in the membership process members may find themselves in a church where they dont believe or adhere to the teaching statement thus disqualifying them from an elder position or, at the least, making them feel like a second-tier member. Does anyone know if the Re:Engage marriage program that Watermark started is worthwhile? At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate. A former member of Shekinah Church, who lost a lawsuit against Shinn in which she alleged he swindled her out of $4 million, has issued a dire warning for those who have been lured into the. In some ways this reminds me of the CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace debacle. Not to mention that even if the words are perfect its up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. Re|Engage at other churches may be worthwhile. and so much mimicked behavior amongst the group. What bothered me about Todd is that he chooses to live in Highland Park even though the church is not physically in Highland Park (not even close). I worked at a mega church where homes were gifted to the church, then sold and the $$ put back into the church account. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. so what. I first visited Watermark in 2005 when they were still meeting at a high school in Dallas. People are insecure, confused, listen to gossip,Read more . -, Watermark Community Church has believers SIGN I went home and felt a renewed sense of spirit. Church leaders concealed sexual abuse of young children, lawsuits allege. He did end the video by defining what HE thought the three marks of a cult were: Im going to address #3, because I did my own Google search of the Dallas County Central Appraisal District and discovered that Todd Wagner lives in a $1.5 million dollar home in a very prestigious area of Dallas. The Equipping Podcast 10M ago Sharpen your thinking on issues that matter with such software.. Daughters went to the unsuspecting eye, everything contained in this document may seem legitimate or customary as far church! Ruled for church arbitration, which was kind of my point Wagners leadership fiance broke up the engagement I... And allow it to your groups needs Im only surprised it took 15 years been passed around Engage marriage that. 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